On Jan 27, 9:52=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger" wrote:
> On Jan 26, 11:25=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger"
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 5:55=A0am, Jack Linthicum
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 8:42=A0pm, Stan Boleslawski
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 5:35=A0pm, Matt Giwer wrote:
>
> > > > > Straha wrote:
> > > > > > With a POD after 1815 your challenge if you choose to accept it=
is to
> > > > > > make Cricket be the big american sport instead of baseball, wit=
h
> > > > > > baseball being a new england regional sport.
>
> > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Would not the first thing to ask be what were the=
rules of Cricket in 1815?
> > > > > And were there related base and ball games in England? There does=
not appear
> > > > > to have been a standard game in the US until decades later.
>
> > > > IIRC both baseball and cricket developed out of Rounders,
> > > > which had been played in the US during colonial times into
> > > > the early 19th century. Baseball developed along different
> > > > lines than cricket did, but they both came from the same
> > > > game.
>
> > This is incorrect. =A0The baseball/rounders connection is
> > oversimplified, but serviceable. =A0(A better characterization is that
> > "baseball" and "rounders" were dialectal variant names for the same
> > game.) =A0Cricket is much more distantly connected. =A0Cricket is well
> > documented to the late 17th century. =A0The earliest clear documentatio=
n
> > for baseball/cricket is from the mid 18th century. =A0Writers try to
> > trace both games much futher back, but there are at best snippets of
> > actual data. =A0It is entirely likely that baseball and cricket are
> > related, but they are cousins, not siblings.
>
> Correction of thinko: =A0The earliest clear documentation for *baseball/
> rounders* is from the mid 18th century. =A0It was called baseball at
> that time. =A0The term rounders arose in the early 19th century.
>
>
>
> > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 If all we have are different versions developing =
along local lines there is
> > > > > no way to make them the same. It would be like how do you make te=
nnis and
> > > > > badminton or croquet and golf the same game.
>
> > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Trivia, Abner Doubleday, hero of Ft. Sumter, was =
read into the imaginary
> > > > > history of baseball because of his military fame.
>
> > > > And to create more tourism for Cooperstown.
>
> > In fairness, the people who concocted the Doubleday story didn't care
> > about Cooperstown. =A0That was a side effect.
>
> > > > The first recorded baseball game ever was played in Hoboken, NJ ;
> > > > what happens if the Doubleday story is never created or never
> > > > catches on and Hoboken becomes known as baseball's birthplace?
> > > > Given Hudson County's status as the de facto "sixth borough" NYC
> > > > probably takes the credit.
>
> > > > Best,
> > > > Stan B.
>
> > > A guy named Alexander Cartwright in OTL took up baseball as a fanatic=
.
> > > He traveled across the country, giving out the rules, preaching the
> > > game, reached California, ("Casey at the bat" is about an all-star
> > > game in Stockton, CA), and finally Hawaii.
>
> > Most of this story has been pretty thoroughly debunked. =A0See the
> > recent biography of Cartwright by Monica Nucciarone for the "Johnny
> > Appleseed of baseball" myth. =A0It involves Cartwright's journal being
> > "improved," probably by his grandson. =A0Cartwright is known to have
> > been a prominent member of the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club from its
> > founding in 1845 through 1848, and served terms as an officer of the
> > club. =A0There is a plausible story from the 1860s that he was the one
> > who suggested forming the club (which was not, contrary to the usual
> > version of history, the first baseball club). =A0The only evidence for
> > his being involved with the actual rules is highly questionable, and
> > the evidence for his involvement from the 1850s on is at best
> > speculative.
>
> > In other words, the Cartwright story is not the outright invention we
> > see in the Doubleday story, but it is vastly improved beyond the
> > evidence.
>
> > Richard R. Hershberger- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>
1344?
http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/rounders.htm
and 1700 for baseball. |
