On Jan 27, 1:40=A0pm, "Richard R. Hershberger" wrote:
> On Jan 27, 10:10=A0am, Jack Linthicum
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 27, 9:52=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger" wrote=
:
>
> > > On Jan 26, 11:25=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger"
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 26, 5:55=A0am, Jack Linthicum
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 25, 8:42=A0pm, Stan Boleslawski
com>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 25, 5:35=A0pm, Matt Giwer wrote=
:
>
> > > > > > > Straha wrote:
> > > > > > > > With a POD after 1815 your challenge if you choose to accep=
t it is to
> > > > > > > > make Cricket be the big american sport instead of baseball,=
with
> > > > > > > > baseball being a new england regional sport.
>
> > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Would not the first thing to ask be what were=
the rules of Cricket in 1815?
> > > > > > > And were there related base and ball games in England? There =
does not appear
> > > > > > > to have been a standard game in the US until decades later.
>
> > > > > > IIRC both baseball and cricket developed out of Rounders,
> > > > > > which had been played in the US during colonial times into
> > > > > > the early 19th century. Baseball developed along different
> > > > > > lines than cricket did, but they both came from the same
> > > > > > game.
>
> > > > This is incorrect. =A0The baseball/rounders connection is
> > > > oversimplified, but serviceable. =A0(A better characterization is t=
hat
> > > > "baseball" and "rounders" were dialectal variant names for the same
> > > > game.) =A0Cricket is much more distantly connected. =A0Cricket is w=
ell
> > > > documented to the late 17th century. =A0The earliest clear document=
ation
> > > > for baseball/cricket is from the mid 18th century. =A0Writers try t=
o
> > > > trace both games much futher back, but there are at best snippets o=
f
> > > > actual data. =A0It is entirely likely that baseball and cricket are
> > > > related, but they are cousins, not siblings.
>
> > > Correction of thinko: =A0The earliest clear documentation for *baseba=
ll/
> > > rounders* is from the mid 18th century. =A0It was called baseball at
> > > that time. =A0The term rounders arose in the early 19th century.
>
> > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 If all we have are different versions develop=
ing along local lines there is
> > > > > > > no way to make them the same. It would be like how do you mak=
e tennis and
> > > > > > > badminton or croquet and golf the same game.
>
> > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Trivia, Abner Doubleday, hero of Ft. Sumter, =
was read into the imaginary
> > > > > > > history of baseball because of his military fame.
>
> > > > > > And to create more tourism for Cooperstown.
>
> > > > In fairness, the people who concocted the Doubleday story didn't ca=
re
> > > > about Cooperstown. =A0That was a side effect.
>
> > > > > > The first recorded baseball game ever was played in Hoboken, NJ=
;
> > > > > > what happens if the Doubleday story is never created or never
> > > > > > catches on and Hoboken becomes known as baseball's birthplace?
> > > > > > Given Hudson County's status as the de facto "sixth borough" NY=
C
> > > > > > probably takes the credit.
>
> > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > Stan B.
>
> > > > > A guy named Alexander Cartwright in OTL took up baseball as a fan=
atic.
> > > > > He traveled across the country, giving out the rules, preaching t=
he
> > > > > game, reached California, ("Casey at the bat" is about an all-sta=
r
> > > > > game in Stockton, CA), and finally Hawaii.
>
> > > > Most of this story has been pretty thoroughly debunked. =A0See the
> > > > recent biography of Cartwright by Monica Nucciarone for the "Johnny
> > > > Appleseed of baseball" myth. =A0It involves Cartwright's journal be=
ing
> > > > "improved," probably by his grandson. =A0Cartwright is known to hav=
e
> > > > been a prominent member of the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club from it=
s
> > > > founding in 1845 through 1848, and served terms as an officer of th=
e
> > > > club. =A0There is a plausible story from the 1860s that he was the =
one
> > > > who suggested forming the club (which was not, contrary to the usua=
l
> > > > version of history, the first baseball club). =A0The only evidence =
for
> > > > his being involved with the actual rules is highly questionable, an=
d
> > > > the evidence for his involvement from the 1850s on is at best
> > > > speculative.
>
> > > > In other words, the Cartwright story is not the outright invention =
we
> > > > see in the Doubleday story, but it is vastly improved beyond the
> > > > evidence.
>
> > > > Richard R. Hershberger- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > 1344?
>
> >http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/rounders.htm
>
> > and 1700 for baseball.
>
> The 1344 picture depicts some sort of ball-and-bat game. =A0The author
> of the webpage speculates that it was an ancestor of rounders. =A0It
> might even be true, but this is just another way of saying that
> rounders wasn't played in 1344. =A0I am skeptical of attempts to trace
> baseball/rounders/cricket that far back. =A0The documentary evidence is
> thin, and it isn't even clear what sort of taxonomic model we should
> be applying. =A0Something like an evolutionary tree is commonly applied,
> but when we get into the area of vaguely defined folk games I suspect
> the better model is like a stew of bacteria exchanging genetic
> material.
>
> As for that 1700 quote, it is an "improved" version. =A0The actual quote
> is "Maidstone was formerly a very profane town, in as much as I have
> seen morrice-dancing, cudgel-playing, stool-ball, cricketts, and many
> other sports openly and publicly indulged in on the Lord=92s Day."
>
> If you are interested in early cites of various such "safe haven"
> games, take a look athttp://retrosheet.org/Protoball/chron.htm. =A0It
> has them in glorious detail. =A0Some of the entries are poorly sources,
> but most are well done.
>
> Richard R. Hershberger
Why rounders is no longer played
http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/e-rounders.html |
