On Jan 27, 4:03=A0pm, Jack Linthicum
wrote:
> On Jan 27, 1:40=A0pm, "Richard R. Hershberger" wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 27, 10:10=A0am, Jack Linthicum
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 27, 9:52=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger" wro=
te:
>
> > > > On Jan 26, 11:25=A0am, "Richard R. Hershberger"
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 26, 5:55=A0am, Jack Linthicum
>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 25, 8:42=A0pm, Stan Boleslawski
t.com>
> > > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > > > On Jan 25, 5:35=A0pm, Matt Giwer wro=
te:
>
> > > > > > > > Straha wrote:
> > > > > > > > > With a POD after 1815 your challenge if you choose to acc=
ept it is to
> > > > > > > > > make Cricket be the big american sport instead of basebal=
l, with
> > > > > > > > > baseball being a new england regional sport.
>
> > > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Would not the first thing to ask be what we=
re the rules of Cricket in 1815?
> > > > > > > > And were there related base and ball games in England? Ther=
e does not appear
> > > > > > > > to have been a standard game in the US until decades later.
>
> > > > > > > IIRC both baseball and cricket developed out of Rounders,
> > > > > > > which had been played in the US during colonial times into
> > > > > > > the early 19th century. Baseball developed along different
> > > > > > > lines than cricket did, but they both came from the same
> > > > > > > game.
>
> > > > > This is incorrect. =A0The baseball/rounders connection is
> > > > > oversimplified, but serviceable. =A0(A better characterization is=
that
> > > > > "baseball" and "rounders" were dialectal variant names for the sa=
me
> > > > > game.) =A0Cricket is much more distantly connected. =A0Cricket is=
well
> > > > > documented to the late 17th century. =A0The earliest clear docume=
ntation
> > > > > for baseball/cricket is from the mid 18th century. =A0Writers try=
to
> > > > > trace both games much futher back, but there are at best snippets=
of
> > > > > actual data. =A0It is entirely likely that baseball and cricket a=
re
> > > > > related, but they are cousins, not siblings.
>
> > > > Correction of thinko: =A0The earliest clear documentation for *base=
ball/
> > > > rounders* is from the mid 18th century. =A0It was called baseball a=
t
> > > > that time. =A0The term rounders arose in the early 19th century.
>
> > > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 If all we have are different versions devel=
oping along local lines there is
> > > > > > > > no way to make them the same. It would be like how do you m=
ake tennis and
> > > > > > > > badminton or croquet and golf the same game.
>
> > > > > > > > =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Trivia, Abner Doubleday, hero of Ft. Sumter=
, was read into the imaginary
> > > > > > > > history of baseball because of his military fame.
>
> > > > > > > And to create more tourism for Cooperstown.
>
> > > > > In fairness, the people who concocted the Doubleday story didn't =
care
> > > > > about Cooperstown. =A0That was a side effect.
>
> > > > > > > The first recorded baseball game ever was played in Hoboken, =
NJ ;
> > > > > > > what happens if the Doubleday story is never created or never
> > > > > > > catches on and Hoboken becomes known as baseball's birthplace=
?
> > > > > > > Given Hudson County's status as the de facto "sixth borough" =
NYC
> > > > > > > probably takes the credit.
>
> > > > > > > Best,
> > > > > > > Stan B.
>
> > > > > > A guy named Alexander Cartwright in OTL took up baseball as a f=
anatic.
> > > > > > He traveled across the country, giving out the rules, preaching=
the
> > > > > > game, reached California, ("Casey at the bat" is about an all-s=
tar
> > > > > > game in Stockton, CA), and finally Hawaii.
>
> > > > > Most of this story has been pretty thoroughly debunked. =A0See th=
e
> > > > > recent biography of Cartwright by Monica Nucciarone for the "John=
ny
> > > > > Appleseed of baseball" myth. =A0It involves Cartwright's journal =
being
> > > > > "improved," probably by his grandson. =A0Cartwright is known to h=
ave
> > > > > been a prominent member of the Knickerbocker Base Ball Club from =
its
> > > > > founding in 1845 through 1848, and served terms as an officer of =
the
> > > > > club. =A0There is a plausible story from the 1860s that he was th=
e one
> > > > > who suggested forming the club (which was not, contrary to the us=
ual
> > > > > version of history, the first baseball club). =A0The only evidenc=
e for
> > > > > his being involved with the actual rules is highly questionable, =
and
> > > > > the evidence for his involvement from the 1850s on is at best
> > > > > speculative.
>
> > > > > In other words, the Cartwright story is not the outright inventio=
n we
> > > > > see in the Doubleday story, but it is vastly improved beyond the
> > > > > evidence.
>
> > > > > Richard R. Hershberger- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > 1344?
>
> > >http://www.tradgames.org.uk/games/rounders.htm
>
> > > and 1700 for baseball.
>
> > The 1344 picture depicts some sort of ball-and-bat game. =A0The author
> > of the webpage speculates that it was an ancestor of rounders. =A0It
> > might even be true, but this is just another way of saying that
> > rounders wasn't played in 1344. =A0I am skeptical of attempts to trace
> > baseball/rounders/cricket that far back. =A0The documentary evidence is
> > thin, and it isn't even clear what sort of taxonomic model we should
> > be applying. =A0Something like an evolutionary tree is commonly applied=
,
> > but when we get into the area of vaguely defined folk games I suspect
> > the better model is like a stew of bacteria exchanging genetic
> > material.
>
> > As for that 1700 quote, it is an "improved" version. =A0The actual quot=
e
> > is "Maidstone was formerly a very profane town, in as much as I have
> > seen morrice-dancing, cudgel-playing, stool-ball, cricketts, and many
> > other sports openly and publicly indulged in on the Lord=92s Day."
>
> > If you are interested in early cites of various such "safe haven"
> > games, take a look athttp://retrosheet.org/Protoball/chron.htm. =A0It
> > has them in glorious detail. =A0Some of the entries are poorly sources,
> > but most are well done.
>
> > Richard R. Hershberger
>
> Why rounders is no longer played
>
> http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/e-rounders.html-
I'm not trying to be snotty, but a Ren Faire website is perhaps not
the most rigorous source for research. The information on the site I
mentioned previously is the best I know of on the web. It is not
perfect, but its imperfections are fairly transparent. If you are
serious enough about the subject to read a dead tree book, look up
"Baseball Before We Knew It" by David Block.
As for the site you gave, it is, umm..., creative. The earliest
reasonably complete description of any version of rounders/baseball is
from the 1790s. The earliest use of the word "rounders" in this
context is from the 1820s. The most generous interpretation of this
site is that it is a reconstruction. Some elements of the rules show
that whoever devised them looked at some actual texts, while others
seem to be modern additions.
As for the "why rounders is no longer played" bit, see:
http://www.roundersengland.co.uk/ and
http://www.gaa.ie/page/rounders.html
Richard R. Hershberger |
