aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> On 21 May 2006 12:27:14 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
> wrote:
>
> >
> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> >> On 20 May 2006 06:47:07 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> >> >> On 20 May 2006 04:37:19 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
> >> >> >> On 19 May 2006 13:58:27 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
> >> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >Can you imagine the price that chocolate either as a treat or m=
ixed
> >> >> >> >into cocoa would turn in the Mediteranean?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Very limited. As it was historically.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> We aren't talking the modern "milk chocolate" here, remember, bu=
t the
> >> >> >> bitter brew that was the original mesoamerican version.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It didn't take Europe by storm ...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> "Loathsome to such as are not acquainted with it, having a scum =
or
> >> >> >> froth that is very unpleasant to taste. Yet it is a drink very m=
uch
> >> >> >> esteemed among the Indians, where with they feast noble men who =
pass
> >> >> >> through their country. The Spaniards, both men and women, that a=
re
> >> >> >> accustomed to the country, are very greedy of this Chocolat=E9. =
They say
> >> >> >> they make diverse sorts of it, some hot, some cold, and some
> >> >> >> temperate, and put therein much of that "chili"; yea, they make =
paste
> >> >> >> thereof, the which they say is good for the stomach and against =
the
> >> >> >> catarrh."
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The first recorded commercial shipment to Europe didn't take pla=
ce
> >> >> >> until 1585.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> It wasn't until the 19th century that it became a widespread, but
> >> >> >> still luxury, solid food.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> For Phoenician would be exploitation, it is simply not obvious t=
hat it
> >> >> >> will, 200 or more years later, be a hit.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Phil
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PG=
D).
> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------=
------
> >> >> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Cortez Inspires a Major Breakthough: Cortez postulated that if th=
is
> >> >> >bitter beverage were blended with sugar, it could become quite a
> >> >> >delicacy. The Spaniards mixed the beans with sugar, vanilla, nutme=
g,
> >> >> >cloves, allspice, and cinnamon. The results were tantalizing, cove=
ted,
> >> >> >fashionable, and reserved or the Spanish nobility which created a
> >> >> >demand for the fruits of his Spanish plantations. Chocolate was a
> >> >> >secret that Spain managed to keep from the rest of the world for a=
lmost
> >> >> >100 years!
> >> >>
> >> >> Thank you for supporting my point.
> >> >>
> >> >> Selling chocolate amongst themselves would be economically pointless
> >> >> for the Phoenicians.
> >> >>
> >> >> And, of course, the Spaniards took around 80 years before they even
> >> >> imported it into Spain.
> >> >>
> >> >> Obviously they didn't have any more clew than the Phoenicians are
> >> >> likely to.
> >> >>
> >> >> Phil
> >> >>
> >> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
> >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------=
---
> >> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
> >> >
> >> >I guess selling wine and fish sauce was a dead loss for the Romans th=
en
> >> >too?
> >>
> >> Note that the Phoenicians had, what, three major cities, Sidon, Tyre
> >> and Carthage.
> >>
> >> The Romans had rather more.
> >>
> >> So, as in the case of your original rejoinder, your comment is
> >> irrelevant and an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that
> >> the original comment you made was flawed.
> >>
> >> >Wine and metals to Maya land, chocolate, coca and other "overvalue"
> >>
> >> Which still does not deal with the facts.
> >>
> >> Chocolate was not imported from the New World for about 80 years after
> >> the first expeditions to mesoamerica and, by your own account, did not
> >> spread beyond spain for a century or more after that. During this time
> >> it was, at best, a drink for the wealthy.
> >>
> >> Ergo, it was of limited financial attractiveness.
> >>
> >> Note: "limited" is *not* the same as "no" ... which some people do not
> >> seem to grasp.
> >>
> >> As another poster noted, there isn't really anything of **OBVIOUSLY**
> >> major economic value in the americas THAT IS JUST LYING AROUND when
> >> the Phoenicians are likely to arrive ...
> >>
> >> Except Gold. As is was for the Conquistadors.
> >>
> >> Chocolate isn't an attraction for *initial* return contact.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil
> >>
> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
> >
> >
> >I would like a quote for my "original rejoinder" that somehow involved
> >the number of Phoenician-Carthaginian cities.
>
> I have to hand it to you, you're *really* top stuff ... at
> sidestepping the issue by pretending to not know what the issue *is*.
>
> I refer to message ...
>
> <1148072307.607749.42340@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
>
> ... where you claim ...
>
> "Can you imagine the price that chocolate either as a treat or mixed
> into cocoa would turn in the Mediteranean?"
>
> To which I responded, quite reasonably, that chocolate was NOT an
> immediate best seller in the Mediterranean world and provided cites
> for the initial European response to it ... which were, at best,
> negative.
>
> Then I noted that it wasn't imported into Europe from mesoamerica for
> around 80 years after mesoamerica was discovered.
>
> Then *you* proved my point by further noting that chocolate was of
> such limited interest that its use didn't spread beyond Spain for 200
> years.
>
> The point that you seem singularly incapable of understanding, or even
> grasping, is that chocolate is NOT staple of first instance. It may
> *eventually* become of interest ... a couple of centuries after first
> contact, based on historical evidence ... but the initial impetus for
> any return visit by phoenician traders will NOT be from chocolate, but
> from GOLD.
>
> Simple, really.
>
> Phil
>
> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
I presume then that you are not sidestepping the issue by equating the
popularity of chocolate in 15th century Spain, despite Cortez little
trick with the sugar, with what the same rare drink would have had in,
oh say, 3rd-4th Century Mediterranean society. The two were so similar
as to be indistinguishable upon reading their cultural traits. Think
how popular the dishes served in the Satyricon would be on the menu of
the finest restaurants today, about 1900 years apart.
"The applause was followed by a course which, by its oddity, drew every
eye, but it did not come up to our expectations. There was a circular
tray around which were displayed the signs of the zodiac, and upon each
sign the caterer had placed the food best in keeping with it. Ram's
vetches on Aries, a piece of beef on Taurus, kidneys and lamb's fry on
Gemini, a crown on Cancer, the womb of an unfarrowed sow on Virgo, an
African fig on Leo, on Libra a balance, one pan of which held a tart
and the other a cake, a small seafish on Scorpio, a bull's eye on
Sagittarius, a sea lobster on Capricornus, a goose on Aquarius and two
mullets on Pisces. In the middle lay a piece of cut sod upon which
rested a honeycomb with the grass arranged around it. An Egyptian slave
passed bread around from a silver oven and in a most discordant voice
twisted out a song in the manner of the mime in the musical farce
called Laserpitium. Seeing that we were rather depressed at the
prospect of busying ourselves with such vile fare, Trimalchio urged us
to fall to: "Let us fall to, gentlemen, I beg of you, this is only the
sauce!"
Beneath, on what seemed to be another tray, we caught sight of stuffed
capons and sows' bellies, and in the middle, a hare equipped with wings
to resemble Pegasus. At the corners of the tray we also noted four
figures of Marsyas and from their bladders spouted a highly spiced
sauce upon fish which were swimming about as if in a tide-race. All of
us echoed the applause which was started by the servants, and fell to
upon these exquisite delicacies, with a laugh. "Carver," cried
Trimalchio, no less delighted with the artifice practised upon us, and
the carver appeared immediately. Timing his strokes to the beat of the
music he cut up the meat in such a fashion as to lead you to think that
a gladiator was fighting from a chariot to the accompaniment of a
water-organ. Every now and then Trimalchio would repeat "Carver,
Carver," in a low voice, until I finally came to the conclusion that
some joke was meant in repeating a word so frequently, so I did not
scruple to question him who reclined above me. As he had often
experienced byplay of this sort he explained, "You see that fellow who
is carving the meat, don't you? Well, his name is Carver. Whenever
Trimalchio says Carver, carve her, by the same word, he both calls and
commands!"
A tray followed them, upon which was served a wild boar of immense
size, wearing a liberty cap upon its head, and from its tusks hung two
little baskets of woven palm fibre, one of which contained Syrian
dates, the other, Theban. Around it hung little suckling pigs made from
pastry, signifying that this was a brood-sow with her pigs at suck. It
turned out that these were souvenirs intended to be taken home. When it
came to carving the boar, our old friend Carver, who had carved the
capons, did not appear, but in his place a great bearded giant, with
bands around his legs, and wearing a short hunting cape in which a
design was woven. Drawing his hunting- knife, he plunged it fiercely
into the boar's side, and some thrushes flew out of the gash. fowlers,
ready with their rods, caught them in a moment, as they fluttered
around the room and Trimalchio ordered one to each guest, remarking,
"Notice what fine acorns this forest-bred boar fed on," and as he
spoke, some slaves removed the little baskets from the tusks and
divided the Syrian and Theban dates equally among the diners.
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/5219/5219-h/5219-h.htm
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