On 21 May 2006 16:03:19 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
wrote:
>
>aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> On 21 May 2006 12:27:14 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> >> On 20 May 2006 06:47:07 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> >> >> On 20 May 2006 04:37:19 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >aspqrz@pacific.net.au wrote:
>> >> >> >> On 19 May 2006 13:58:27 -0700, "Jack Linthicum"
>> >> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >Can you imagine the price that chocolate either as a treat or mixed
>> >> >> >> >into cocoa would turn in the Mediteranean?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Very limited. As it was historically.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> We aren't talking the modern "milk chocolate" here, remember, but the
>> >> >> >> bitter brew that was the original mesoamerican version.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It didn't take Europe by storm ...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> "Loathsome to such as are not acquainted with it, having a scum or
>> >> >> >> froth that is very unpleasant to taste. Yet it is a drink very much
>> >> >> >> esteemed among the Indians, where with they feast noble men who pass
>> >> >> >> through their country. The Spaniards, both men and women, that are
>> >> >> >> accustomed to the country, are very greedy of this Chocolaté. They say
>> >> >> >> they make diverse sorts of it, some hot, some cold, and some
>> >> >> >> temperate, and put therein much of that "chili"; yea, they make paste
>> >> >> >> thereof, the which they say is good for the stomach and against the
>> >> >> >> catarrh."
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> The first recorded commercial shipment to Europe didn't take place
>> >> >> >> until 1585.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> It wasn't until the 19th century that it became a widespread, but
>> >> >> >> still luxury, solid food.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> For Phoenician would be exploitation, it is simply not obvious that it
>> >> >> >> will, 200 or more years later, be a hit.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Phil
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
>> >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Cortez Inspires a Major Breakthough: Cortez postulated that if this
>> >> >> >bitter beverage were blended with sugar, it could become quite a
>> >> >> >delicacy. The Spaniards mixed the beans with sugar, vanilla, nutmeg,
>> >> >> >cloves, allspice, and cinnamon. The results were tantalizing, coveted,
>> >> >> >fashionable, and reserved or the Spanish nobility which created a
>> >> >> >demand for the fruits of his Spanish plantations. Chocolate was a
>> >> >> >secret that Spain managed to keep from the rest of the world for almost
>> >> >> >100 years!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Thank you for supporting my point.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Selling chocolate amongst themselves would be economically pointless
>> >> >> for the Phoenicians.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And, of course, the Spaniards took around 80 years before they even
>> >> >> imported it into Spain.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Obviously they didn't have any more clew than the Phoenicians are
>> >> >> likely to.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Phil
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
>> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
>> >> >
>> >> >I guess selling wine and fish sauce was a dead loss for the Romans then
>> >> >too?
>> >>
>> >> Note that the Phoenicians had, what, three major cities, Sidon, Tyre
>> >> and Carthage.
>> >>
>> >> The Romans had rather more.
>> >>
>> >> So, as in the case of your original rejoinder, your comment is
>> >> irrelevant and an attempt to draw attention away from the fact that
>> >> the original comment you made was flawed.
>> >>
>> >> >Wine and metals to Maya land, chocolate, coca and other "overvalue"
>> >>
>> >> Which still does not deal with the facts.
>> >>
>> >> Chocolate was not imported from the New World for about 80 years after
>> >> the first expeditions to mesoamerica and, by your own account, did not
>> >> spread beyond spain for a century or more after that. During this time
>> >> it was, at best, a drink for the wealthy.
>> >>
>> >> Ergo, it was of limited financial attractiveness.
>> >>
>> >> Note: "limited" is *not* the same as "no" ... which some people do not
>> >> seem to grasp.
>> >>
>> >> As another poster noted, there isn't really anything of **OBVIOUSLY**
>> >> major economic value in the americas THAT IS JUST LYING AROUND when
>> >> the Phoenicians are likely to arrive ...
>> >>
>> >> Except Gold. As is was for the Conquistadors.
>> >>
>> >> Chocolate isn't an attraction for *initial* return contact.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Phil
>> >>
>> >> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
>> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> >> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
>> >
>> >
>> >I would like a quote for my "original rejoinder" that somehow involved
>> >the number of Phoenician-Carthaginian cities.
>>
>> I have to hand it to you, you're *really* top stuff ... at
>> sidestepping the issue by pretending to not know what the issue *is*.
>>
>> I refer to message ...
>>
>> <1148072307.607749.42340@j33g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
>>
>> ... where you claim ...
>>
>> "Can you imagine the price that chocolate either as a treat or mixed
>> into cocoa would turn in the Mediteranean?"
>>
>> To which I responded, quite reasonably, that chocolate was NOT an
>> immediate best seller in the Mediterranean world and provided cites
>> for the initial European response to it ... which were, at best,
>> negative.
>>
>> Then I noted that it wasn't imported into Europe from mesoamerica for
>> around 80 years after mesoamerica was discovered.
>>
>> Then *you* proved my point by further noting that chocolate was of
>> such limited interest that its use didn't spread beyond Spain for 200
>> years.
>>
>> The point that you seem singularly incapable of understanding, or even
>> grasping, is that chocolate is NOT staple of first instance. It may
>> *eventually* become of interest ... a couple of centuries after first
>> contact, based on historical evidence ... but the initial impetus for
>> any return visit by phoenician traders will NOT be from chocolate, but
>> from GOLD.
>>
>> Simple, really.
>>
>> Phil
>>
>> Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
>
>I presume then that you are not sidestepping the issue by equating the
No, indeed I am not.
I restate, since you still seem incapable of grasping what I have said
from the beginning ...
"The point that you seem singularly incapable of understanding, or
even grasping, is that chocolate is NOT staple of first instance. It
may *eventually* become of interest ... a couple of centuries after
first contact, based on historical evidence ... but the initial
impetus for any return visit by phoenician traders will NOT be from
chocolate, but from GOLD."
Which stands, unchallenged, despite your irrelevancies.
Phil
Author, Space Opera (FGU), RBB #1 (FASA), Road to Armageddon (PGD).
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au |
